[0:00] Ryan Warwick: And I, you know, hear these, we can't live through another 2008. Now we're retired. We don't have time to recover. If you just retired, you need to be doing this. You need to take that distribution for the next 30 years. You can't not experience the next 2008. No. Companies, because what we're trying to build, and this is a really important point, is we want to build a framework where we never have to sell stocks when they're dank. And I think I said it last time, but I'll say it again. I had a client and when
[0:38] Ryan Warwick: we started working together, he'd been with somebody else and was looking at spreadsheets every month and how much income he could take and was just stressed and
[0:49] Ryan Warwick: laboring over his investments and if they were going to meet their goals for that month or ever. And once we started working together with this as a framework, he stopped that. He started living. Right. Let's just say it goes down 50%. Now I don't have a million dollars. I have $650,000 because my stocks went down $350,000.
[1:15] Ryan Warwick: Okay. But that doesn't matter because I wasn't living off this side.
[1:20] Shannon Warwick: It doesn't.
[1:22] Narrator: Welcome to part two of Years of Safe Money.
[1:25] Ryan Warwick: Welcome to the Worth Beyond Wealth podcast.
[1:28] Shannon Warwick: Where net worth meets personal worth. I'm Shannon.
[1:30] Ryan Warwick: I'm Ryan. We help families navigate the emotional, relational, and personal realities that money alone can't solve.
[1:37] Shannon Warwick: If you've built wealth but still wonder what it all means or how to keep your family grounded while protecting your legacy, you're in the right place.
[1:45] Ryan Warwick: We sit down with experts and with you to talk identity, purpose, and connection beyond the balance sheet.
[1:52] Shannon Warwick: Because true wealth isn't measured in dollars. It's measured in the impact we make and the relationships we nurture.
[1:59] Ryan Warwick: So grab a seat. Take a breath. And let's redefine what it means-
[2:03] Shannon Warwick: To be truly wealthy together.
[2:05] Ryan Warwick: This is the Worth Beyond Wealth podcast.
[2:08] Shannon Warwick: All right. All right, honey, take it away. Years of Safe Money.
[2:12] Ryan Warwick: So first thing we do is just draw
[2:19] Ryan Warwick: a picture of
[2:22] Ryan Warwick: a jagged line, right? And what we're framing up is for people to understand market history. And that's an important part of the conversation. It's so important to have knowledge around what we're talking about because when we are informed,
[2:44] Ryan Warwick: then we have less fear.
[2:45] Shannon Warwick: Absolutely.
[2:46] Ryan Warwick: So about 1945,
[2:53] Ryan Warwick: so right after World War II, the S&P 500 was around 19.
[3:00] Ryan Warwick: Not
[3:02] Ryan Warwick: kind of surprising. By the way, it didn't hit, the S&P 500 didn't hit 100 until about 1980.
[3:09] Shannon Warwick: Really?
[3:09] Ryan Warwick: Yeah. And today,
[3:12] Ryan Warwick: the S&P 500 sits a little bit over 6,800.
[3:19] Ryan Warwick: So this is a picture of 1945 to 2025, so 80 years.
[3:27] Ryan Warwick: So you have 80 years,
[3:32] Ryan Warwick: 19 to 6,800,
[3:35] Ryan Warwick: which amounts to
[3:39] Ryan Warwick: about a seven and a half, I mean, without running the actual math on here. That was about a seven and a half percent
[3:48] Ryan Warwick: return
[3:51] Ryan Warwick: per year.
[3:53] Ryan Warwick: And I am going to just try my best to do right with really good handwriting, which is so foreign. So to put it another way,
[4:04] Ryan Warwick: the,
[4:06] Ryan Warwick: let me just double check this.
[4:09] Ryan Warwick: So if I say what was the growth of 19 to 6,800, just the total growth? 19 to 6,800 was about 357 times, okay, or
[4:29] Ryan Warwick: 35,689%.
[4:38] Ryan Warwick: Pretty fascinating. It is. When you think about the power of growth over time. And we're not going to probably get into it today, but that is the power of compounding.
[4:50] Shannon Warwick: Yeah, absolutely.
[4:52] Ryan Warwick: And so the
[4:56] Ryan Warwick: market didn't go from 19
[5:00] Ryan Warwick: to 6,800
[5:03] Ryan Warwick: in a nice straight line, did it? Did not. There were
[5:08] Ryan Warwick: lots of moments that created lots of fear for people.
[5:11] Shannon Warwick: Sure.
[5:12] Ryan Warwick: Those moments we affectionately call bear markets. And so
[5:19] Ryan Warwick: over those 80 years,
[5:23] Ryan Warwick: we had about
[5:26] Ryan Warwick: 18 bear markets. And a bear market
[5:32] Ryan Warwick: by definition,
[5:34] Ryan Warwick: just a technical definition, is a drop of 20% or more.
[5:42] Ryan Warwick: So
[5:44] Ryan Warwick: the reason I say about 18 bears is because some of those moments were 19% down.
[5:51] Shannon Warwick: Right.
[5:51] Ryan Warwick: It functionally felt like a bear market. Exactly. But it wasn't technically a bear market.
[5:55] Shannon Warwick: Sure.
[5:57] Ryan Warwick: And so
[5:59] Ryan Warwick: that,
[6:01] Ryan Warwick: over those 18 bear markets, a minimum drop of around 20%. Uh-huh. The average drop
[6:08] Ryan Warwick: Was 33%.
[6:11] Ryan Warwick: And so if we think about 18 bear markets over 80 years, it's roughly, um, you know, one every four to five years. But let's call it one every five years. So once every five years,
[6:28] Ryan Warwick: we get on average
[6:32] Ryan Warwick: a 33% drop.
[6:34] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[6:35] Ryan Warwick: And we say, "Yeah, this is a good idea."
[6:39] Ryan Warwick: And so at, uh, on the surface it seems a little counterintuitive. Um, but there's a couple more pieces of data, uh, that we'll, that we'll get into. So, um, the first thing I wanna wrap back around and say is, um, you might notice earlier in the, in, in this episode we talked about the average return of companies being 10%. Mm-hmm. And yet we only drew this up to be, um, you know, 19 to 6,800 over 80 years is, is only about 7.5% per year.
[7:12] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[7:12] Ryan Warwick: A lot of people don't know that the price of, of the index, um, most indexes are going to be this way. S&P 500, Dow, Dow Industrial, uh, Dow Jones Industrial Average.
[7:26] Ryan Warwick: These are called price indexes. So the number that you see on the screen when you pull up your app or, or, uh, on the news, um, is just the price of companies. In other words, it doesn't include the cash flows or dividends- Mm-hmm... that those companies have paid over time. So the owners or the investor in this time period not only got the price move from 19 to 6,800, but they also got all of the dividends-
[7:53] Shannon Warwick: Along the way. Yeah
[7:54] Ryan Warwick: ... along the way.
[7:55] Shannon Warwick: Yep.
[7:56] Ryan Warwick: And dividends, uh, were, uh,
[8:02] Ryan Warwick: potentially as high as, as 3% on average over that time period. Um, but we're just gonna call it 2.5%,
[8:12] Ryan Warwick: which gets us cash flow return, dividends- Mm-hmm... price return, uh, from
[8:20] Ryan Warwick: the
[8:21] Ryan Warwick: increase of, of the, the value of the companies- Mm-hmm... 7.5%, which equals your 10%.
[8:27] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[8:28] Ryan Warwick: And so if I, if I now
[8:33] Ryan Warwick: were to say, um,
[8:36] Ryan Warwick: what is the return
[8:40] Ryan Warwick: or the, the increase? So if, if 19 to 6,800 was 357 times increase- Mm-hmm... when we add in dividends, what is that increase? And so, um,
[8:56] Ryan Warwick: if we included dividends- Mm-hmm... in the price of mean, that's 19 would have grown to about
[9:06] Ryan Warwick: 38,900.
[9:10] Ryan Warwick: A pretty-
[9:11] Shannon Warwick: Wow
[9:11] Ryan Warwick: ... significant increase just by adding the, the dividends. Mm-hmm. Uh, that in and of itself is a, a fascinating conversation. Just the power of some extra return and, and, you know, the power of reinvesting those dividends. So if we go 19 to, uh, that, uh, then instead of
[9:38] Ryan Warwick: a return of, uh, three, of, of 35,689%, we actually would have seen
[9:48] Ryan Warwick: 204,740%.
[9:55] Ryan Warwick: So it's unbelievably powerful just when you, when you start to look at the real, uh, the real returns over time, uh, for a patient investor. So
[10:10] Ryan Warwick: summing this up is to say, "Look, this is, this is the power of the market." A, a hundred dollars. Let's, let's make it- Yeah. A hundred... a hundred dollars invested in 1945.
[10:22] Ryan Warwick: Um,
[10:24] Ryan Warwick: going up
[10:27] Ryan Warwick: 2,000%
[10:30] Ryan Warwick: or 2,000 times would be worth 204, $205,000. Mm-hmm. Right? So, so $100,
[10:39] Ryan Warwick: now we're putting into some tangible terms, right? Yep. Would be worth $200.
[10:46] Ryan Warwick: And look, you never... That's not $100 invested each year. That's $100 invested once back then eight years ago.
[10:53] Shannon Warwick: That's $100 left alone.
[10:54] Ryan Warwick: The power of that is phenomenal.
[10:56] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[10:58] Ryan Warwick: How do we capture the power of this? Uh, a- and that is,
[11:05] Ryan Warwick: uh, we have to experience these moments that are called bear markets, right? And so, I mean, this is an important lead up to the years of safe money because, um, it's in these moments
[11:22] Ryan Warwick: when it feels really terrible, when it feels like, "Wait a second, the last 20 years of my returns just went out the window."
[11:29] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[11:30] Ryan Warwick: It's in those moments when the, when the power shines through. So we, we kind of have to build up with some of this framework of, of, and historical knowledge. So what we need to know is that
[11:45] Ryan Warwick: we can't time these moments, right? So I don't know when that's, the, the top is going to happen. I, in other words, if I did, I could get out. Mm-hmm. That's what we're saying. We can't time the market. I don't know when to get back in. But what I do know is that on average, from the peak to the, to the trough and back to a recovery-
[12:10] Ryan Warwick: In a diversified portfolio has lasted about 40 months. Mm-hmm. Or
[12:19] Ryan Warwick: three and a half years.
[12:20] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[12:22] Ryan Warwick: Okay, so now I, I start to have a little bit of an understanding. Okay, the entrance fee for me to participate, to ge-
[12:32] Ryan Warwick: the, the purchase price of the movie ticket to get in and see the movie-
[12:35] Shannon Warwick: Yeah. There we go
[12:36] Ryan Warwick: ... is, is for me to experience some of these moments that cause my stomach to churn.
[12:44] Shannon Warwick: It's pain with purpose.
[12:44] Ryan Warwick: And they do.
[12:45] Shannon Warwick: It's pain with purpose. Absolutely. Yeah, so just- Totally... understanding and having my mind wrapped around and having run these drills, I know that there's gonna be moments that I feel like throwing up, but if I can hold on- Yeah... I will see reward. That's right. Yeah. Okay.
[13:03] Ryan Warwick: So the- That's a little-... entrance to get into the, the entrance fee to get into the movie- Mm-hmm... is the, is to experience a one-third drop on average, on average once every f- fifth year. Yep. Right? Yep. And to know that that will last approximately 40 months. Okay, this is all really, really important information- Mm-hmm... to have if we're going to
[13:29] Ryan Warwick: successfully navigate
[13:32] Ryan Warwick: a 30-year retirement or even longer. Yeah. If our money has 80 years to live, that money will need to live through 18, 20 bear markets. Exactly. That, that will be-
[13:43] Shannon Warwick: Understand that this is part of it. So we have- Yeah. Yep
[13:45] Ryan Warwick: ... to know, we have to have thought about it. We have to think about- Yes... how are we going to behave- Mm-hmm... when 2007 or 2008 and '9 happens again?
[13:57] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[13:58] Ryan Warwick: What are we gonna do when the market in that moment- Mm-hmm... dropped 58%?
[14:04] Ryan Warwick: It was absolutely brutal. I know. And so if you didn't have a framework- Yeah... you were easily scared out, "This is a casino. I'm never gonna do this again." Yeah. And, and then you can't recover. And the market's done nothing but go up for basically- Right... for, for the last 15 to 20 years after that move. Okay, so- So 40 months. Yeah. Right? And, and that is, that is our fee. So how do we put this together then? Mm-hmm. Okay? So now we, we are talking with clients and we say, "Look, you have, uh, a port-
[14:38] Ryan Warwick: portfolio or a collection of- Mm-hmm... assets, companies, bonds, cash, real estate," whatever it might be.
[14:45] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[14:47] Ryan Warwick: So for our purposes, we'll just talk about basically what we've talked about at the start of this, companies versus bonds and cash.
[14:54] Shannon Warwick: Sure.
[14:56] Ryan Warwick: And
[14:58] Ryan Warwick: what we, we can just start with a, a simple scenario. So we would have some context if we were talking with a client, w- and it may be something like, "Look, we have," uh, so the math is easy for me to do quickly on the fly. We have a million dollars,
[15:17] Ryan Warwick: and
[15:19] Ryan Warwick: we need, and after a conversation, we might, uh, understand that we need to get, um,
[15:28] Ryan Warwick: a 3% distribution from that-
[15:30] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[15:30] Ryan Warwick: ... uh, million dollars each year. Okay?
[15:33] Ryan Warwick: And so,
[15:35] Ryan Warwick: and we're in our 60s. "Hey, we can't," and, and I've h- you know, hear these, "We can't live through another 2008. Now we're retired. We don't have time to recover."
[15:44] Shannon Warwick: Right.
[15:44] Ryan Warwick: Okay? Well, actually,
[15:49] Ryan Warwick: if you just retired, you need to be doing this, you need to take that distribution- Mm-hmm... for the next 30 years. You can't not experience the next 2008. Yeah. Because experiencing the next 2008 is a critical part of experiencing the returns- Mm... that companies can provide over time.
[16:13] Shannon Warwick: That's so good. Yeah.
[16:14] Ryan Warwick: They provide this return not in spite of these moments that we call bear markets. They provide these returns because of those moments- Mm... because there's uncertainty and because there's risk. Investors are rewarded with what's called a risk premium. Okay? So by taking on risk, you get more reward.
[16:35] Shannon Warwick: So write that on the board.
[16:36] Ryan Warwick: And so you see- Okay... this is what I was saying earlier. We can't- Yeah... over a 30-year
[16:42] Ryan Warwick: retirement say, "Well, I don't want any un, I don't want uncertainty. I w- I'm gonna own- It's coming... I'm gonna own- Yeah... bonds and cash so that we don't have uncertainty."
[16:51] Shannon Warwick: Yeah. Well, then you're not gonna keep up with inflation.
[16:53] Ryan Warwick: Then you won't participate y- Yeah. Yeah. The- Mm-hmm. So there's trade-offs, right? And that's where we said, you know, this is a, it's all about balance. It's all about- Mm-hmm... the logistics and then the emotion. But- Mm-hmm... okay, we need, we have a million dollars. Mm-hmm. We need a $30,000 distribution. Um,
[17:14] Ryan Warwick: so we're gonna just for the moment say we're gonna put together a 30%
[17:22] Ryan Warwick: and a 70%, and there's a reason I picked that. Uh, so if I need 3% from my portfolio, that is a distribution
[17:34] Ryan Warwick: that I need to take to meet my goals and expenses- Mm-hmm... probably, you know, next to my Social Security income. Mm-hmm. Um, it's pensions-
[17:43] Shannon Warwick: So if, so, so if Ryan and Shannon come in, we're, we're retired now. Yep. And we're shifting from saving to spending. We need to get this distribution. We have a million dollars. Yep. Let's use ourselves. Yep. Okay.
[17:56] Ryan Warwick: We need 3% or $30,000.
[17:59] Shannon Warwick: Yep.
[18:00] Ryan Warwick: 3, 30% of our million dollars we have put in, and this is a big just, like, we're gonna call it safe money. Okay. But it's quotations, and it's just all we're saying there is less volatile- Liquid, uh, cash and bonds. Okay? Okay. So we're just, it's safer money. Okay. Okay? There is nothing out there that is perfectly safe, as we have already- Right... um, dialogued about. Okay. So this is actually $300,000, right?
[18:35] Ryan Warwick: So 30%
[18:38] Ryan Warwick: of my million dollars- Mm-hmm... of our million dollars.
[18:41] Shannon Warwick: Thank you.
[18:42] Ryan Warwick: Is 300,000. Okay? So if we need 30,000- Mm-hmm...
[18:49] Ryan Warwick: at the surface, we could take that for 10 years, right? And that's why I chose this allocation. It makes- Mm-hmm... for simple math. Okay. Okay. So
[19:01] Ryan Warwick: why are we talking about that, though? But the reason we're talking about it is because what causes people the most fear- Mm-hmm... is what if 2008 comes? Yeah. And it doesn't go right back up? Exactly. What if it comes and it stays down?
[19:18] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[19:19] Ryan Warwick: And it stays down for five, six, seven years.
[19:23] Shannon Warwick: Right. Not, not what we would expect to be the 40 months.
[19:27] Ryan Warwick: And that's a reasonable-
[19:28] Shannon Warwick: That's a good question... question, right? Yeah, I agree.
[19:30] Ryan Warwick: What if it, what if 2000 would- didn't recover? What if, you know, you, you name the, the, the crisis. And over the, the course of, of time, while we said 40 months is the average back, back even farther in- Mm-hmm... the Great Depression- Yeah... from about 1929, uh, at, in a peak to about 1936- Mm-hmm... uh, '37 was, was about the longest time period people have ever had to wait- Mm-hmm... for the market to fully recover- Recover... to where you could have, uh, sold companies. Because what we're trying to build, and this is a really important point, is we wanna build a framework where we never have to sell stocks
[20:15] Ryan Warwick: when they're down.
[20:17] Shannon Warwick: Absolutely.
[20:17] Ryan Warwick: Right? That bulletproofs a retirement strategy. I never want to sell companies when they're down. Now that doesn't mean, hey, if we're down one or two or 3% from all-time highs, that we're not gonna still take- Sure... uh, some money from there. What it- what we're saying is, hey, if the market's down about 10%, that's kind of our rule of thumb,
[20:40] Ryan Warwick: we start turning and saying, "If you need money, we're taking it from this side of the portfolio." Yes. Okay? Absolutely. So in those moments, we're taking it from over here.
[20:53] Ryan Warwick: So that's why we put this together is, hey, if you have $300,000 in the safer side of your portfolio, you can effectively, uh, weather stocks being down for a decade- Mm-hmm... without ever coming to this side of the portfolio- Yeah... for spending money.
[21:14] Shannon Warwick: I mean, it's really powerful. When you map that out- Yeah... it's un- yeah. It's, it's incredible.
[21:20] Ryan Warwick: And so, and so what we're trying to do here, and this is kind of where all the magic comes together at- Mm... the end of this because what we want to do, like in a perfect world, let's, for the moment-
[21:30] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[21:31] Ryan Warwick: ...
[21:33] Ryan Warwick: um, well, I'll just, I'll just say it this way. We want to have as much on this side of the portfolio- Mm... as much company ownership, as much... Because we know the power of this story-
[21:43] Shannon Warwick: Exactly, yeah
[21:44] Ryan Warwick: ... we wanna have as much as possible.
[21:49] Ryan Warwick: We turn up the dial. Let's call it a dial, like- Mm-hmm... right? So 100% would be the max. So let's w- as we start progressing toward that, we'll turn up the dial 80, 90%. Mm-hmm. And then somebody might say, "Oh, that's gonna start to hurt a little bit." Yeah. And we pull it back. So when we think about, you know, we want, we want something that gives them a years of safe money number- Yeah... that allows them to sleep-
[22:14] Shannon Warwick: Yeah
[22:14] Ryan Warwick: ... well at night.
[22:15] Shannon Warwick: Yep. Find your number.
[22:17] Ryan Warwick: We wanna maximize this- Uh-huh... and, and maximize this, right?
[22:20] Shannon Warwick: Agreed. Absolutely. I, I can see-
[22:23] Ryan Warwick: Or, or I should say it differently. Mm. Maximize this while optimizing this- Mm... for logistics and emotion. Charles Ellis in a book, Winning Loser's Game, said, "Too often," and he was kind of referring to this redefining idea that- Mm-hmm... people are out there chasing the next great investment. They're- Mm-hmm... short-term things trying to outperform. Mm-hmm. And he says, "What ends up happening is they're trying to attain short-term objectives- Mm-hmm... that are neither important nor attainable."
[22:56] Shannon Warwick: Hmm.
[22:57] Ryan Warwick: "And in the process, they're losing the ability," because this is gonna lead to failure. Mm-hmm. "They're losing the ability to meet their long-term goals- Yeah... and objectives that are both attainable and important." Wow. So think about that.
[23:13] Shannon Warwick: That's a good quote.
[23:14] Ryan Warwick: Yeah.
[23:15] Shannon Warwick: I mean, you love quotes, but that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah.
[23:18] Ryan Warwick: So
[23:20] Ryan Warwick: this is just the first part of the story. Agree. Yeah. So the next piece we get to show people is that, remember,
[23:28] Ryan Warwick: companies don't just go down and we can't touch anything. Right. Companies pay cash flows, dividends. Remember the dividends. Right? Yep. So I actually drew out a little bit lower than the long-term average dividend rate.
[23:39] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm. No, you were being conservative, yeah.
[23:41] Ryan Warwick: In a global, globally diversified portfolio-... meaning companies from all over the world,
[23:47] Ryan Warwick: 2% is a good round number- Mm-hmm... as far as a dividend today. Mm-hmm. And so what that means is
[23:54] Ryan Warwick: we will get
[23:57] Ryan Warwick: $14,000 a year-
[24:00] Shannon Warwick: Right
[24:01] Ryan Warwick: ... in dividends. Now, in normal good times, and maybe even in these moments, we can just reinvest those. We can buy- Mm-hmm... more companies, buy more shares, and that's the power of getting to that number over time.
[24:12] Shannon Warwick: Right.
[24:13] Ryan Warwick: But if we're in a real crisis, and it's- Dragging on and Mm And uncertainty is, is creating emotional havoc we could actually spend this money Right? Mm. So we can still, we can spend $14,000- Mm... per year without selling any companies. Exactly. Wow. I like to say we can eat the eggs without killing the chickens.
[24:39] Shannon Warwick: I love it.
[24:40] Ryan Warwick: So if, if we-
[24:42] Shannon Warwick: I'm gonna borrow that
[24:42] Ryan Warwick: ... spend that money- Yeah... then we don't need $30,000 from our safer side, right?
[24:50] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[24:51] Ryan Warwick: We need $16,000. Yeah. I'm gonna round, make it 15 just because-
[24:55] Shannon Warwick: I mean, this is where it gets really exciting and really fun, or we're really nerds. I don't know which
[25:01] Ryan Warwick: So I'm just gonna say we need $15,000- Uh huh... from this side. Right. Paired with- Yeah... our dividends. Our dividends, yeah Which are gonna be, let's call it 14 to 16,000. So- Yeah... maybe hit 15,000 a year.
[25:14] Shannon Warwick: Okay.
[25:14] Ryan Warwick: We don't have 10 years of safe money. We have more than.
[25:18] Shannon Warwick: We have 20.
[25:20] Ryan Warwick: Hey.
[25:22] Shannon Warwick: It's good.
[25:23] Ryan Warwick: The next step w-
[25:25] Shannon Warwick: There's more.
[25:26] Ryan Warwick: There's more.
[25:27] Shannon Warwick: Oh.
[25:28] Ryan Warwick: The next step would be to even talk about the interest. And lo and behold- Lo and behold... bonds and cash are actually paying some interest these days.
[25:37] Shannon Warwick: They darn well are. Okay.
[25:38] Ryan Warwick: We're getting three and a half, 4%. Right. So, you know, while that would be, um, right now, so on that, in first year, if we said three and a half percent interest-
[25:50] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[25:54] Ryan Warwick: ... then, uh, on $300,000,
[25:58] Ryan Warwick: that is $10,500.
[26:02] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[26:02] Ryan Warwick: Okay?
[26:04] Ryan Warwick: $10,500 in interest. We can use that money.
[26:09] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[26:11] Ryan Warwick: Which means I don't need $15,000. I know. $5,000.
[26:16] Shannon Warwick: And my years of safe money?
[26:18] Ryan Warwick: Is, boy, 300 divided by five.
[26:20] Shannon Warwick: Van, show them what they've got.
[26:23] Ryan Warwick: 60. Now, that's not entirely true, because if we are spending this down, that will become a declining number. Correct. But here's the point. Almost everybody we have this conversation to
[26:36] Ryan Warwick: goes from, "Stocks are risky. Stocks are uncertain. I can't take, uh, that drop every five years." Mm-hmm. "I don't know if I can survive 40 months." Mm-hmm. "Yeah, I want that, but that feels like a lot of pain," to, "Oh, well, if I have that much spending and the average market only is down for three and a half years when it is bad, and I can ignore it and keep spending my income for somewhere between 10 and let's put 60 aside, but maybe it's 40 years."
[27:10] Shannon Warwick: Sure.
[27:12] Ryan Warwick: For somewhere between 10 to, 10 and 40 years. So,
[27:15] Ryan Warwick: boy, um,
[27:17] Ryan Warwick: yeah-
[27:17] Shannon Warwick: And I never had to touch this side
[27:19] Ryan Warwick: ... you know what? You know what, Ryan?
[27:22] Ryan Warwick: Maybe, maybe we could have more stock.
[27:25] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[27:25] Ryan Warwick: Right? So maybe we could have, in other words, more of our portfolio positioned for growth.
[27:32] Shannon Warwick: We can turn the dial.
[27:34] Ryan Warwick: Right. We, oh, all the sudden we understand- Mm-hmm... that the safer side of the portfolio is there, not because it's ever exciting or that we actually like owning it. It provides us a buffer against uncertainty and volatility in those moments when it matters most, when we can't afford to panic. Mm-hmm. We can't afford to sell stocks when they're down 20, 30, 40%.
[27:59] Shannon Warwick: Mm.
[28:00] Ryan Warwick: And so it's, it's a really, uh, powerful framework. What it also does, let's just say that they don't say, "Let's increase right now." Sure. Okay, Ryan, that's great. That's exciting. We, we know that when, not if, when the market falls next- Mm-hmm... we don't need to panic.
[28:22] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[28:24] Ryan Warwick: What we can do, though, is in those moments
[28:28] Ryan Warwick: when the market's down, we have some dry powder over here. If this side hasn't fallen, and look, they're i- i- in, in 2022 when the Fed started raising interest rates rapidly, um, intermediate and longer term bonds did take a hit, which is why we, we try to keep this as safe as, as possible. Mm-hmm. So that in any market where stocks are down, boy, it'd be nice to go sell a sliver of this and go buy some companies when they're down. Mm-hmm. So this is the framework
[29:05] Ryan Warwick: that allows us to not be scared by these moments, but to say-
[29:11] Shannon Warwick: Mm
[29:11] Ryan Warwick: ... "If this is a buying opportunity, let's, let's go take some money from our safe side-" Mm-hmm... and go, if we can, back up the truck. Let's move, not only move back to 70/30, because let, let's think about this for a moment. If we start at 70/30 and stocks fall-
[29:33] Shannon Warwick: Right
[29:34] Ryan Warwick: ... we're no longer at 70/30.
[29:35] Shannon Warwick: We're continuing to need to balance.
[29:37] Ryan Warwick: Right. So let's say- Yeah... we're at 60/40.
[29:39] Shannon Warwick: Right.
[29:39] Ryan Warwick: Well, let's first of all get back to 70, 70/30.
[29:43] Shannon Warwick: So, so we're seeking homeostasis.
[29:45] Ryan Warwick: Yep. We're getting back. Right. We're re- we're rebalancing. Mm-hmm. The discipline- Mm-hmm... of rebalancing is one aspect to taking advantage of market volatility. Mm. But the second one might even be, hey, it kept falling. Why don't we, why don't we now go to
[30:04] Ryan Warwick: 80/20?
[30:06] Ryan Warwick: And take advantage of this gift, you know, potentially a once in a generation gift. The market's down 58%. Let's go. We, we did this for some clients. Mm. And, and were they comfortable? No. No. I mean, I'm not gonna lie and say-
[30:21] Shannon Warwick: Yeah
[30:22] Ryan Warwick: ... that they loved doing it, but they said We understand the strategy, and we've walked with you, and, and this makes sense. And so, yeah, let's go
[30:36] Ryan Warwick: buy... Let's take that money that is, you know, the, the safe buffer and go buy some more- Mm... and take advantage of this. And then as the market rises, guess what? We'll go
[30:49] Ryan Warwick: sell some from bonds- Bonds... and we'll go... Or if it's from s- companies, and we'll go put it back and maybe rebalance back to 70/30.
[30:56] Shannon Warwick: Okay.
[30:57] Ryan Warwick: And, uh, so it's an important and powerful framework-
[31:02] Shannon Warwick: Mm
[31:02] Ryan Warwick: ... to make decisions throughout any, um, market environment. Mm-hmm. And also, it's a filter for things like, "Hey, should we be getting out of the market because- Mm... it kind of feels like it's expensive now." Mm-hmm. Okay, well, first question, maybe, maybe we should. So is rebalancing in order? Is the portfolio at 75/25? And so n- yeah, we should go m- maybe do that. Mm. Um, but we're certainly... Why would we, why would we go 50/50? Is that, is that in keeping with your goals and your plan- Mm... and how the portfolio is structured in, in this, in this mindset of saying we want to be positioned for growth- Mm-hmm... and not try to time the market. Mm-hmm. So it's a,
[31:53] Ryan Warwick: I think,
[31:55] Ryan Warwick: a fun and powerful market and, and that boils down to what is this?
[32:04] Ryan Warwick: What are these years of safe money? And so for most of our clients, I mean,
[32:09] Ryan Warwick: people that talk about... I think this is where our framework is a little different. Mm. People that talk about have cash for a few years of spending-
[32:16] Shannon Warwick: Yeah
[32:19] Ryan Warwick: ... that is, again, that's fine.
[32:22] Shannon Warwick: Mm.
[32:22] Ryan Warwick: But I don't think it gives people a full framework to understand that
[32:29] Ryan Warwick: not only do we have more than a few years, we might have five, 10, 15, 20, especially when dividends and, and, uh, interest is considered.
[32:40] Shannon Warwick: Yeah, exactly.
[32:41] Ryan Warwick: But if I only have three years' worth of cash on the sidelines and everything else is in stocks, and then the market falls- Mm-hmm... I can't go take advantage of the market when it's in that moment of, of being down. So a lot of our clients like the flexibility. And, and we love that, that story of being able to, to get in there and, and respond proactively- Mm-hmm... to, um, to what the market is giving us.
[33:09] Shannon Warwick: Yeah.
[33:09] Ryan Warwick: So, um, anyway,
[33:13] Ryan Warwick: I'm gonna shut up for a moment.
[33:15] Shannon Warwick: You did a really nice job. You do need to work on your handwriting.
[33:21] Shannon Warwick: Um-
[33:21] Ryan Warwick: So
[33:23] Ryan Warwick: in elementary school-
[33:25] Shannon Warwick: Yeah
[33:25] Ryan Warwick: ... uh, I would get a Friday folder every week-
[33:28] Shannon Warwick: Oh, I remember the Friday folders
[33:28] Ryan Warwick: ... and it would say, "Ryan needs to work on his handwriting."
[33:31] Shannon Warwick: Do you know what?
[33:31] Ryan Warwick: "Ryan needs to work on his handwriting." I know. And I just didn't.
[33:35] Shannon Warwick: So I j- uh, one thing, uh, quickly though that I do, I do find so interesting, and I think it's always so important to come back to, is
[33:42] Shannon Warwick: the psychology of money. We just can't get away from it.
[33:44] Ryan Warwick: No.
[33:46] Shannon Warwick: Human behavior-
[33:46] Ryan Warwick: And it's so critical to, you know- Yeah... what is this about? Worth beyond wealth.
[33:51] Shannon Warwick: Yes.
[33:53] Ryan Warwick: And
[33:55] Ryan Warwick: one of the things that, y- you know, some people that have lots and lots of wealth
[34:02] Ryan Warwick: don't necessarily enjoy it because they're worried about losing it. I mean, that- Mm... that is, you know, the goalpost move, and now I need more. And so this is an import-
[34:11] Shannon Warwick: Or can I afford, or can I stop?
[34:13] Ryan Warwick: So this is a really important framework-
[34:16] Shannon Warwick: It's a beautiful picture to help people see
[34:18] Ryan Warwick: ... for the experience of worth beyond wealth. Yeah. Because if you understand this- Mm-hmm...
[34:25] Ryan Warwick: you can rest at night. I've, I mean, y- you asked, you asked a question earlier, what do clients say? And I, I remember, and I think I said it last time, but I'll say it again. Mm-hmm. Had a client in, in when we, um, when we started working together, he had been with somebody else and was looking at spreadsheets every month and- Yes... and how much income he could take and, and was just stressed-
[34:47] Shannon Warwick: Stressed, mm
[34:48] Ryan Warwick: ... and, you know, laboring over, um, his investments and, and if they were gonna meet, you know, their goals for that month or, or ever. Mm-hmm. And once we started working together with this as a framework, he stopped that. He started living. That's so great. And, and he didn't tell me that, but his wife did.
[35:07] Shannon Warwick: I was gonna say- Yeah.... I know who told you, his wife did. Um,
[35:12] Shannon Warwick: yeah. So do you feel that this helps people increase their risk tolerance?
[35:17] Ryan Warwick: Uh, I think it can. Can. 'Cause
[35:20] Ryan Warwick: if, if I only know the first part of the story,
[35:25] Ryan Warwick: the market, yeah, the market's good.
[35:28] Ryan Warwick: Investing's good. I want the 10% return.
[35:31] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[35:32] Ryan Warwick: But, ugh.
[35:34] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[35:36] Ryan Warwick: Doesn't it fall a bunch on a regular basis? Don't I lose my money? So some, some of it is around, uh, the nomenclature of lose versus
[35:48] Ryan Warwick: down-
[35:49] Shannon Warwick: Mm
[35:49] Ryan Warwick: ... temporarily.
[35:51] Shannon Warwick: Sure.
[35:51] Ryan Warwick: Right? We like to say the market uptrend is permanent, the downturns are temporary, always.
[35:58] Shannon Warwick: That's so great. Yeah. Say that again.
[36:01] Ryan Warwick: Um- I think that's- So, so if we, if we have a framework around an understanding of the downturns are always temporary and the uptrend is always permanent- Mm-hmm... with albeit temporary and sometimes significant interruptions-
[36:16] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[36:17] Ryan Warwick: ... then we can weather the storms.
[36:20] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[36:20] Ryan Warwick: Um, it's, it's around even things like...
[36:27] Ryan Warwick: The difference between volatility and risk. Mm-hmm. You see, I don't think,
[36:33] Ryan Warwick: in my mind,
[36:36] Ryan Warwick: this
[36:38] Ryan Warwick: isn't risk.
[36:41] Ryan Warwick: This is volatility. This is movement. If it was risk,
[36:46] Ryan Warwick: then that would've been a loss. It wasn't a loss. It was a temporary downturn. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Now, bad behavior could turn it into a permanent loss.
[36:56] Shannon Warwick: Right. Right? That's what's so important to understand.
[36:58] Ryan Warwick: The, and that's the danger.
[37:00] Shannon Warwick: Right, that human be- yeah.
[37:01] Ryan Warwick: But, but that's volatility. So
[37:04] Ryan Warwick: part of all of this is that educational framework to build the muscle memory. Now we're, you know- Yeah... maybe talking about new muscle memory of- We're-... of, of let's just understand what is happening out there. Let's not- Well, I think-... talk about if the market crashes, what would we do? No, let's talk about when the market crashes-
[37:20] Shannon Warwick: When the market crashes
[37:21] Ryan Warwick: ... how will we behave?
[37:21] Shannon Warwick: How will we... So I think just sort of summing this up, what we've really taken away from this is that this is a mindset shift for, for many. Or, or even a-
[37:32] Ryan Warwick: It's a mindset shift, and can I just-
[37:35] Shannon Warwick: Yeah
[37:35] Ryan Warwick: ... y- because you asked, you asked, "Does it
[37:38] Ryan Warwick: allow people to increase their risk tolerance?"
[37:40] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[37:42] Ryan Warwick: And, and I just want to definitively state, I think that it can. First was that educational piece, but then when you see this in light of,
[37:52] Ryan Warwick: I don't have a stock portfolio that might go down, and therefore, I only have this much money,
[37:59] Ryan Warwick: which would be technically true, right? Let's just say it goes down 50%. Now I don't have a million dollars, I have $650,000.
[38:08] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[38:09] Ryan Warwick: Because my stocks went down 350,000.
[38:14] Ryan Warwick: Okay. But that doesn't matter because I wasn't living off this side. Exactly. This is where I'm... And so if I know that over my experience, I am going to see moments when it's down 10, 20, 30, 40, 50%-
[38:30] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[38:30] Ryan Warwick: ... so without this framework in, in drawing a picture of how this plays out for them in years of safe money-
[38:39] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm
[38:41] Ryan Warwick: ... um, then it might be hard for them to even arrive at a, a 50%, 60 or 70%, um, portfolio of, of companies or growth-based assets. Mm-hmm. Um, and if, and if that's the case, then you're, y- you're limiting your long-term potential. Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's-
[39:04] Shannon Warwick: I-
[39:04] Ryan Warwick: ... it's an important framework for, um-
[39:06] Shannon Warwick: I think it helps people to get out of their own way.
[39:09] Ryan Warwick: Yeah.
[39:10] Shannon Warwick: What,
[39:12] Shannon Warwick: what would you say... Oh, you know what we didn't talk about? Did you want to talk about, oh, did you want to talk about averaging in? Do you have time? Or that could- Yeah... that could be another time.
[39:23] Ryan Warwick: I, I mean,
[39:27] Ryan Warwick: why don't we, yeah, why don't we-
[39:29] Shannon Warwick: Wanna save that for another-
[39:30] Ryan Warwick: ... tee that up for another- Sure. Okay. But, but yeah, averaging in is, is really powerful in part of this, you know, maybe next steps in part of the implementation. I'll just say a lot of people naturally do it because they're saving into things like 401 s- Mm-hmm... on a bi-weekly or monthly basis- Mm-hmm... and so money's going in slowly. But we'll talk through that. And, and then we need to come back and, and look at things like the power of compounding- Yes. Okay... you know, which tie in, all of those tie into this.
[40:01] Shannon Warwick: So,
[40:02] Shannon Warwick: so listeners, we're just, we're just gonna leave you with those little tidbits there, right? So we'll talk about averaging in, and we'll talk about... And I don't want to forget that. Um, notes in my hi- horrible handwriting. So averaging in and, uh, compounding. We'll talk about that. It's also exciting stuff. Um, but circling back-
[40:24] Ryan Warwick: Yes
[40:25] Shannon Warwick: ... what is one big takeaway from today that you would want your listeners to, to, to go with? What, what do you want them to take away?
[40:34] Ryan Warwick: I'm gonna, I'm gonna call an audible.
[40:37] Shannon Warwick: Okay.
[40:38] Ryan Warwick: And,
[40:40] Ryan Warwick: and I wanna know,
[40:42] Ryan Warwick: because they're not my listeners- Oh... they're our listeners,
[40:47] Ryan Warwick: and I wanna know what your one big takeaway would be.
[40:52] Shannon Warwick: That was sneaky. Yeah. I know where you live. Yeah. Um,
[40:59] Shannon Warwick: you know, I think when I look at this, I feel, it was some- it was interesting. I was thinking of-
[41:04] Ryan Warwick: Looks like a mess
[41:05] Shannon Warwick: ... well, it is. It- it's that whole thing where I always tell you, honey, that's like straight from the movie A Beautiful Mind.
[41:11] Shannon Warwick: You know that, right?
[41:12] Ryan Warwick: Well, I like the colors. It's pretty. Yeah.
[41:15] Shannon Warwick: Yeah. Um.
[41:17] Shannon Warwick: Yeah, oh, it's like abstract art.
[41:19] Ryan Warwick: Yeah.
[41:20] Shannon Warwick: Okay. Well,
[41:23] Shannon Warwick: one thing that was coming to mind was, you know that old expression, if you don't give someone a, a fish but you teach them how to fish?
[41:31] Ryan Warwick: Sure.
[41:32] Shannon Warwick: That's how I feel when I look at this. You know? I, I think you're, you're teaching me how to fish. Um, it feels very empowering. Um, there is something fun about it. So like I said, I mean, maybe we're just really big nerds, but I think there is something... You don't even have to really enjoy finances to find this fascinating.
[41:54] Ryan Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[41:55] Shannon Warwick: Um-
[41:56] Ryan Warwick: Well, because money impacts everyone.
[41:58] Shannon Warwick: It does.
[41:59] Ryan Warwick: It's, it's so,
[42:02] Ryan Warwick: it's such a powerful force in our society- Yeah... because it touches every aspect of our lives. So-
[42:07] Shannon Warwick: Well, and you look at this-... it's important... and I say, okay, my, my needs are met, but what else can we do?
[42:13] Ryan Warwick: Yeah.
[42:14] Shannon Warwick: What impact can you have? Who can you give go ahead and dream, and understand that you don't have to be small in your thinking. You do have the ability and the power and the opportunity to, to really go big.
[42:31] Shannon Warwick: Yeah. So
[42:33] Shannon Warwick: I guess that's my takeaway.
[42:36] Ryan Warwick: Well, I think that's, I think it's great. Um, I mean, my, my takeaway is
[42:41] Ryan Warwick: potentially
[42:44] Ryan Warwick: doesn't matter because, you know, I live in this every day. I, I... So what's important is, you know, what does somebody who's maybe seeing this for the first or second or 10th time
[42:56] Ryan Warwick: see and, and take away? And hopefully that's, uh, like you said, it's empowerment. Well, and I- It's-
[43:02] Shannon Warwick: ... find it interesting, the truth is, Ryan, we don't teach this in school.
[43:06] Ryan Warwick: Right.
[43:07] Shannon Warwick: And so
[43:09] Shannon Warwick: what I find so fascinating about this is that this is something that adults are learning, young adults and older seasoned adults- Mm-hmm... are learning for the first time. Yeah. And I do not use the word learning lightly. I mean it. We are learning this for the first time.
[43:29] Ryan Warwick: Well,
[43:31] Ryan Warwick: and they're not necessarily learning this. They're trying to learn, "How do I invest and grow my money so that I can meet my goals and have a good retirement or buy that, you know-
[43:40] Shannon Warwick: Or so that I can survive
[43:41] Ryan Warwick: ... fund education or, yeah.
[43:42] Shannon Warwick: I mean, sometimes it's just survival.
[43:43] Ryan Warwick: Sure.
[43:44] Shannon Warwick: But I really, I really love this. I think that this is something that, that, that you can just take to people and say, "Go."
[43:52] Ryan Warwick: It's, it's a f- "Go thrive." It's a f- framework that allows, uh, every new goal, market input, headline, market situation to be filtered through, right? And that's actually, um, as I was, uh, traveling over the last couple days, a lot of my time was spent, um, thinking through the book that's, uh, that will come out hopefully over the next year, um- Real Wisdom... on, on Real Wisdom, and, and putting this framework in there. Mm-hmm. So, you know, that framework starts with understanding, uh, you, you need a historic understanding. Some- You do... some baseline of, what am I even dealing with? I mean, the stock market, isn't that just where people, you know, roll the dice and, and play, and it's a casino, right? It's dangerous and... No. Here, here's the historic truth, right? Here's, here, here are the facts. So that's a, that's a first layer, and then it has to be filtered through, you know, goals and, and as we said, goals and, and a plan and, and a, and a well-implemented, well-executed designed portfolio, which this comes into play. And, and then as you think, a- as you're potentially reacting emotionally, um, to, to start to filter some questions- Mm-hmm... um, like has anything changed in my life that would dictate a change in my plan or portfolio? Or, you know, am, would I just be reacting emotionally or, you know- Yeah... is there a counter move I can make? So, uh, like we'll, we'll write-
[45:30] Shannon Warwick: Feelings, feelings versus facts
[45:31] Ryan Warwick: ... yeah, so we'll put that out there as-
[45:33] Shannon Warwick: We can do that, yeah
[45:33] Ryan Warwick: ... hey, over the next 12 months, there'll, there'll be a book out that really dives into some of these- Right... topics and, and concepts, uh, a little bit more to give, to give this framework and more, um, because it, it is a
[45:48] Ryan Warwick: something for a lifetime in, of investing. It's not for a moment. It's not based on today's circumstances. It's not based on a market recommendation. It is a way of life in investing.
[46:01] Shannon Warwick: It is helping people to be the hero of their story.
[46:05] Ryan Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[46:07] Shannon Warwick: So thank you. Still- Yeah
[46:09] Ryan Warwick: ... I think that that is best implemented,
[46:15] Ryan Warwick: um-
[46:15] Shannon Warwick: With a good guide
[46:16] Ryan Warwick: ... with a good guide because- No, um-... we, we find that, y- I, I've shown people this many, many times.
[46:24] Shannon Warwick: Mm-hmm.
[46:25] Ryan Warwick: And now maybe it gets old to them, but they are kind and don't say it. But-... you know, I, I don't think it gets old because we need those reminders. We get bombarded by the media, uh, and, and the headlines daily, and, and we might get a chance to talk to people about this once or twice a year, so- Mm... it's, it's still valuable. Yeah. But yeah.
[46:45] Shannon Warwick: Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting. I'll just say for parents, so just can use this as an example. Um, everyone is shouting at your kids, so you just need to shout louder so that they can hear you. So y- the media and as you said- Yeah... ev- everything is, is, is, your neighbor, uh, every headline, everything is shouting, right?
[47:04] Ryan Warwick: We're inundated with information. We're inundated. Yeah.
[47:06] Shannon Warwick: You gotta shout louder. They need to hear you. Um-
[47:10] Ryan Warwick: Well, and that's the goal of this podcast is to- We're shouting louder... try to reach some people- Yes... who we might never interact with.
[47:16] Shannon Warwick: And when I say shouting, I'm not- Yeah... saying we're, you know- Yeah, of course... being abrasive. I'm just saying be louder. You know, have a voice. Get out there. Be impactful. Don't, don't get hidden- No... you know, for the, the force of-
[47:31] Ryan Warwick: We're trying to not be the best-kept secret in the Northwest. We are- Yeah
[47:36] Shannon Warwick: ... currently the best-kept secret in the Northwest. We're no more.
[47:39] Ryan Warwick: That's right.
[47:41] Shannon Warwick: Well, thank you, um, again. Thanks. I, I, I know that you are, uh, my husband and also my-
[47:50] Ryan Warwick: I'm your investor. How about that?
[47:52] Shannon Warwick: No. Thank you. You're not only, uh, my wonderful husband, but, you know, you, you also do a great job with, um, you know, managing, managing our money for the future. And, and I appreciate this because it's always so fun to sit down and learn. Yeah. Right? And so, um, I enjoy that. But, um, I think we have to say there's also not, not every husband and wife enjoys this. Yeah. Be cautious, and that's where-
[48:21] Ryan Warwick: But it's important, so that's where, hey, find the guide.
[48:23] Shannon Warwick: That's where the good guide can come in really-
[48:25] Ryan Warwick: Yeah, plug your nose. Go into the meeting once or twice a year and just-... try to learn. Yeah. Try to have some takeaways.
[48:32] Shannon Warwick: Yes.
[48:33] Ryan Warwick: Execute with discipline so that you can have, uh, an experience worth beyond wealth.
[48:37] Shannon Warwick: I think it's fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you.
[48:40] Ryan Warwick: Thanks.
[48:41] Ryan Warwick: Thank you for listening to the Worth Beyond Wealth podcast. If you liked this podcast, please like, share, and subscribe. The highest compliment you could give would be sharing this with a friend. Thank you. The opinions expressed in this program are for general informational purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual or any specific security. RW Investment Management, LLC, dba RW Investment Management, is a registered investment advisor. Testimonials given by current clients are not in exchange for compensation. This document is solely for informational purposes. Advisory services are only offered to clients or prospective clients where RWIM and its representatives are properly licensed or exempt from licensure. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital. No advice may be rendered by RWIM unless a client service agreement is in place. RWIM is not a legal or tax advisor.